Recovery starts, but it never ends. Daniel P.

Daniel has 18 years in recovery and he gives credit for the life he has today largely to the program of Narcotics Anonymous. I don't care if you're a new comer or an old timer, this conversation has something for everyone and it's definitely worth a listen.

Find Daniel on Instagram

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:01

It's been a while since I got to have a conversation about the Narcotics Anonymous program here on the show. In this episode, I had Daniel Petros in the studio. With 18 years in recovery, he largely credits the program for the life he lives today. From hopelessly addicted to crack to the chef, restaurateur, and entrepreneur he is today, Daniel has a pile of useful insights into that old NA recovery. But before we bring him in, what's up? My name's Dan, podcaster, keynote speaker, and advocate, and this is Hard Knox Talks, your addictions podcast. Now let's get into this talk with Daniel P.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

This is Hard Knox Talks.

SPEAKER_05 0:39

This episode originally aired March 20th, 2024. What's up, Daniel? What's up, Daniel? Yes, yes. I've never had another Daniel.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Appreciate you having me here, bro. Yeah, of course. It's a pleasure and an honor and uh a privilege to be here.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Well, it and likewise it's good to have you because uh I got sober in 2017 and then I met Daniel.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Yeah, that's when I met. I just was asking you a few moments ago when we met, and yeah, I remember what you coming in and remember you coming in with your little son. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

He's not so little anymore. He's almost as big as Donna now.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

He's probably taller than me.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

Yeah, and I if you remember, I was probably really angry at Donna at that time too. Yeah, everybody remembers that about me. Oh, that was that murderous guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were all angry at the beginning.

SPEAKER_05 1:22

Yeah. Oh man, that's the truth.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

To a truth, that's the truth. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26

So you've been uh in recovery for how long now?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Well, actually, today's what March 5th? Yes. So two days ago, March 18, March 3rd of this year, was uh my 18 years uh uh clean and sober date. So I cleaned up our March 3rd, 2006 was my first day living in recovery. Yeah. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 1:48

Um it it's sometimes far and few between. I go through stints on the show here where it'll be like a long time before I have like a between program people. Yeah, because there's other there's lots of other ways. And if it if the show has taught me anything, is that there's uh other ways that people can get sober and have fulfilling lives.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 2:05

But I know that you are are well versed, um, and and you're comfortable talking about it, correct?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

100%.

SPEAKER_05 2:13

Okay, I didn't ask you that before the show. So where's your where are you at on anonymity?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. Honestly, yeah, it's uh yeah, I've I've gone public. Uh in you know, as far as social media is concerned, you know, ever anybody in my life knows I'm in recovery, right? Anybody who has any semblance of a relationship with me uh in all walks of life, be it you know my family, my friends, uh people that I do business with, most people know that I'm in recovery. Yeah uh but as far as announcing it in a pop public setting, like I've never really been on Facebook, I do have an Instagram account which is pretty active. I embraced Instagram uh quite uh willingly in 2017. Yeah, and uh it was actually my 16-year anniversary when I turned 16 that I announced it publicly on on that platform.

SPEAKER_05 3:00

So is with 18 years under your belt, um is it still about staying sober? Like do you wake up every morning and say, I have to stay sober today?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

No, no, yeah, no, it's uh, you know, the obsession was lifted a long time ago to use. Yeah. Uh, you know, what I've learned uh over my time in recovery, and I'm still very active in the recovery community, I still attend a lot of meetings.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

I still sponsor, I have a sponsor. You know, I do I do a lot of work that that we're asked to do when we get here on a continuum because I know that we That's what works. That's what works, right? And uh, but uh as far as the struggle with using or thinking about using, honestly, uh, I'm very, very blessed that I don't struggle with the idea of staying clean and sober. The idea of using has actually become a repulsion. And so uh I count that as a massive blessing, but I also know I can't take that for granted because that's true today.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

I don't know what's coming down the pipe. Yeah, I don't know what's coming down in the future. But the truth is, I've seen a lot of people that have less clean time, more clean time than me. Yeah, that have relapsed.

SPEAKER_05 4:08

Think they can go out for one.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Right?

SPEAKER_05 4:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

And uh that's the one lie I haven't uh permitted myself to tell myself.

SPEAKER_05 4:15

You know, and I've I've heard that, you know, and before the show we were talking about the voices, right? Um I you're saying, where did you come up with this idea? And I said a voice that sounded just like mine told me, you know, and um, and that goes to higher power and and source energy or or whatever you choose to call it. Um, but I have had a voice similar to that just offer the suggestion, hey, why don't you think about maybe being able to have one, you know? And um, and it was and it's never sounded like a good idea to me, you know. So um, and and maybe I take that for granted because I know where it took me when I when I did. I remember there was a time where it's like, I need to quit this shit, but I'm gonna do it tomorrow, you know. It was a a twisted sense of just for today, right? Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

I I I can relate to all of that. And uh and I think honestly, in uh for me, anyways, this is my truth, uh I I credit it to being connected to the program in a very real way on a continuum basis, yeah, where that voice is unabated, right? Because if I step away, if I remove myself from the very thing that has that removed that problem for me and that has given me the life that I have today, uh, which has been the antidote to that strong, powerful of it uh voice of addiction, which at a certain point in my life I was completely powerless against.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

If I don't stray close to the source, yeah, to my higher power, yeah, to remind me and to keep working and living in the solution, then I know there's a possibility for that to be amplified.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Right. And I think there's a direct correlation between that voice almost being non non-audible, non-existent, yeah, and my connection to my higher power, which for me the most direct source is through the program and the people that are in it.

SPEAKER_05 6:01

Yeah. So something I've noticed in my own recovery. Now, I've just took seven years in February, uh, and and I've known this for a long time, and and I and I do believe that some of the successes in my life are can be accredited to that compulsion. Um, it takes on different forms, right? Uh, it can be social media, which I struggle with to this day, um, and it's very difficult for me because this is, you know, my livelihood. So all that to say, um the the obsession can manifest in different ways. Absolutely. Now, are you finding that you're needing to go elsewhere to handle obsessions of different behaviors? Like perhaps like you're a restaurateur and a chef and and uh and an entrepreneur, and and um it it has been said before that you know alcoholics or addicts in recovery, they're amongst the best businessmen in the world or business people in the world, because we have that obsession. We just kind of learn to point it in a productive direction. What are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Well, it's uh first of all, congratulations on seven years. Thank you. Yeah, that's massive. And uh every day clean and sober has to be celebrated, right? Uh, it has to be celebrated, you know, and so um, and also just witnessing you doing something productive and creative, like this podcast, and having conversations and taking the conversations outside of the rooms, yeah. Uh letting people know that there's a solution out of that obsession needs to be commended as well. And I think to your point, yeah, the uh, you know, although the drink and the drug was removed, the problem exists in the first step, which we know about.

SPEAKER_05 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

Explain it for anyone who might not know, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

So the you know, the the first step says we were powerless over our addiction that our life had become unman our lives had become unmanageable. Yeah. And the key word there for me is the collective. We not one single step says I ad, you know, it doesn't say I admitted I was powerless over addiction and that my life had become unmanageable. It says we admitted we were powerless over our addiction and that our lives had become unmanageable. So it's a collective consciousness that I'm tapping into. Yeah, it's a collective uh solution that I'm tapping into. Yeah, it's a collective uh spiritual power that I'm tapping into. Because the disease of addiction, by its very nature, creates isolation, segregation, separates me from self, my family, my community, and who my higher power always destined for me to be. Yeah, you know, so the drink and the drug is gone. Step one. Yeah. What's left?

SPEAKER_05 8:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

The obsessive, self-centered, self-willed individual. The problem is me. So although I have gained a tremendous set of tools, spiritual tools, by working the 12 steps, yeah, through the support and guidance of people outside of myself, yeah, mainly what we refer to as a sponsor in the program, uh, and the literature that exists there. Yeah. And again, that collective fellowship, that that we that I got to tap into, that I'm that I'm that I'm a member of a wisdom tradition and a community that's very fast and vast and available for me anywhere I go. Yeah. So that being said, unless I'm working at really sort of continuously and progressively in a committed way to battling that obsession, that obsessive part of myself. Because we we we we have parts of us that are not ideal, we have parts of us that are really good, but we continuously need to work on them. So, obsession for me, for example, shopping. Yeah. Like I like nice things. You're always looking tight, man. Right? Yeah, you know, I like nice things. Yeah, and I'm not ashamed of that, and I don't apologize for it. No, but yeah, I'm also a guy who has owned 650 pairs of shoes.

SPEAKER_05 9:50

Whoa.

unknown 9:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

That's a lot of shoes. That's a lot of shoes.

SPEAKER_05 9:53

That's like problematic. Like that's like I bet you your rent is more because you had to get a pace big enough to accommodate your shoes.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

So, you know, and that transpired that the majority of that, specifically that obsession happened in a five-year gap where I was not connected to the fellowship. Okay, where I wasn't going to meetings, where I was not talking to my sponsor, where I wasn't working with other addicts.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

And I was busy chasing life and catching up on life.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

But I in literally the only time I went to a meeting in those five years was when I was feeling like shit.

SPEAKER_05 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

So I wasn't connected to the source, to the very solution. So obsession showed itself in a lot of ways. Yeah. Materialistically is one of them.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Professionally. Professionally. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Professionally.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

That's how it's manifested for me. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

And you're right. As a chef, yeah, you know, outside of recovery in my family and nature, yeah, cooking is my single biggest passion. Yeah. I can lose myself in it.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

So there is a positive to that because you're right. The one thing that has happened in recovery is that I've been able to use that obsession, my self-drive, yeah, ambition. That motivation to feel better. That's all it is. In a positive way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:01

Yeah. Productive way.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

But it does have its pitfalls.

SPEAKER_05 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

A degree of perfectionism can can can come into that.

SPEAKER_05 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Right? Yeah. And I'm sure you can relate to that. Look around, man. Right? Yeah. So to this day, and speaking with you sitting here today. Yeah, like I've struggled with pornography in the past. Right? So this disease is insidious. It's progressive.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

It's incurable.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Right. My the the amount of serenity of I have today is contingent on my spiritual fitness.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Which means I can never lose sight of all of doing all the things that I was asked to do in order to create a psychic change. A change in the way I think.

SPEAKER_05 11:51

Fundamentally. Fundamentally. Like you the uh the kind of thinking where you don't have to think about changing your thinking. It's just there.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Right? Yeah. You know, and there's the the there's a there's a quote from the big book that says, what used to be the occasional thought or hunch becomes inspiration, becomes a working part of the mind.

SPEAKER_05 12:12

Yeah, yeah. Right. Which you once thought was impossible.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Right? But but I have to continually feed that.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

I have to continually feed that. Because unless I'm living in the solution, the old the the the the old me that I were that I've that I've had so much help to change, yeah, and I didn't do this alone. I've had so many people help me on this journey.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

Full community, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

A full community.

SPEAKER_05 12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

In many different ways. Yeah. I have to continue, you know, to try to have an exit uh a level of honesty, humility, and willingness to take outside help.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

You know what my friend, um, do you know Rand Teed? Do you know the name Rand Teed? No. No, no, he's a old school recovery guy. I tell him, Rand, your bottom, your rock bottom was when the asteroid took out the dinosaurs. But something that he said he he was just in the studio a little while ago talking about uh something, something else, drug policy stuff. And um he said, recovery is like walking up the down escalator. You gotta keep going or else it's gonna take you back down.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

100%. That's a great analogy. Yeah, I totally get that.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

I totally get it.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

So, what brought you into recovery? Like, like tell us a little bit about the life before you made the decision.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

What got me into recovery? Um, yeah, I'll go back a little bit, not too much. I don't like to talk about the past, not because I'm ashamed of it, but we all know that addiction and living in active addiction is is we all have our version of that horror.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

We all have uh different levels of what we consider rock bottom.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

What mine can be different from yours, but we suffer from the same disease, but we also have a solution.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

And so for me, ultimately, you know, in the last three to four years, especially, um, I lived in a constant state of fear. I was imprisoned by my own shame, guilt. Shame and guilt were pervasive emotional uh bars in my life. And so, yeah, you know, 21 charges pending, massive amount of child support due. Hadn't seen my daughter for six years, completely ostracized and estranged from my family, who, despite all of those conditions, were still there for me. Yeah, they used to come to Calgary to look for me. My brothers, my dad, along with other relatives on the streets there while I was hopelessly lost in the world of of of addiction to crack cocaine, which was uh, you know, it wasn't about that drug, but in the end, that drug stripped all the lies bare.

SPEAKER_05 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Right? I had managed to juggle a life up until that came into the picture, and it just took everything so fast that from this perspective and in in being in the last 18 years, I look at that as a blessing because I could have gone drinking and doing all that other shit, yeah, probably for another 10-15 years to end up in the same place. So it got you where you needed to be. In a hurry.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

You ever have any sort of like sort of twisted kind of respect for that?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

I do. It's not twisted at all. Okay. Um, a because number one, I say I look at it as a blessing because it didn't kill me. Um, and that's that's that cannot be understated because it's taken the lives of so many that I that I used to that I used to be in that life with. And there's more coming. Way more.

SPEAKER_05 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

So it's it's not really twisted in the sense that I I you know I don't want to to misconstrue anybody to look at that as as me glorifying it or even you know seeing it as something positive because it's not positive.

SPEAKER_05 15:59

To use it to seek their own rock bottom, basically. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Is my way that was what my path. You're right. Yeah. Um, but it didn't kill me, but it got me to my bottom so so fast. And honestly, the thing that got me March 2nd, 2006, I called my mom and dad and said, I want to come home.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

That phone call was the burden of not making that call and wanting to make it every single day for two and a half, three years was very heavy. How did you feel? Like the the like in that moment the weight was lifted. Yeah. And honestly, like for me, that was that was the moment where God, my higher power, the creator, the universe, yeah communicated with me in a very direct way and told me, It's okay. It's okay, you can go home. And for me, going home was literally coming back to Saskatoon to face my demons.

SPEAKER_05 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

And who were these demons? Self-constructed demons who were the closest people in my life. My family.

SPEAKER_05 17:08

You know, I say that same thing. I actually wrote a song about it. Um, and one of the lines in the song, it's called Make Believe, and one of the lines in the song goes, uh, My demons wear your face because they just love fucking with me.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

There you go.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:22

And I and and one of and my demons, they wore Donna's face for a long time. As you witnessed, I was so angry. I was so angry, but it wasn't even at her. You know, and I go into depth. I wish I I wish I could just whip it out and play it for you right now, actually.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

But I remember that song, actually. Yeah, I think I do. Was uh I remember you writing a song a couple years into recovery, maybe, but I remember you sharing it with me. I don't remember the details of the song, but I remember you telling me about that song that you wrote.

SPEAKER_05 17:49

Yeah, it's very possible, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:51

Yeah, I would I would play for anyone who'd listen.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah, no, no, no. No, I I totally uh yeah, I remember. Yeah, I remember you sharing that song.

SPEAKER_05 17:57

So um, but but just all to say is that I I can relate to what you're saying about um, you know, your self-constructed demons. So how did you come to face that then?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Well, I didn't know how I was gonna face it. Like I told you initially, March 2nd, there was a voice that said, It's okay, you can go home. Yeah, it's you can go home. And, you know, in a very real way, I ended up in a church.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

First of all, I was in remand about three weeks before that. Okay, in Medicine Hat. And for the first time, being arrested over and over and over, I said to myself, I cannot get out of here and keep doing what I'm doing. Every other time that I've been in Remand, which is probably five or six times, I was consumed wholly 24-7 with the thought and idea of getting out so I could smoke crack.

SPEAKER_05 18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Like that's all I thought about. And of course, coupled with the misery, the shame, the loneliness, the guilt, which you're trying to shove to the side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:05

Well, you don't want to feel like that, and that's that's what was really going on. I can't wait till I cannot feel like this anymore.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Exactly. Yeah. And so when I was in Medicine Hat, I thought, you know, I wholeheartedly my spirit said, You can't keep doing this.

SPEAKER_05 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

And the idea of leaving, getting out, and not using started becoming strong. And a conviction started to set in. And so I wanted to go to mass because you're on lockdown 23 hours a day.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

So hang on Nasek before we go. Uh, were you a religious person before this awakening?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

I was raised Roman Catholic, went to a Catholic boys' school in Nairobi when I was young. Okay. Went to a Catholic uh St. Matthew's Elementary in Saskatoon, went to church all the time, grew up with the Bible. My mom's very religious. Uh, but I I went I went away from that religion. I I I sprinted as soon as I could away from Catholicism.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And I have nothing against religion.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

I have nothing. Like my mom's faith in her God and and and her spiritual relationship is very powerful. And her prayers kept me safe for years. So you don't consider yourself a Christian then? No. No. No. No. No. Uh but uh so I went to mass. Okay. And I hadn't been to church apart from weddings and funerals, probably for a solid 10 years before that. So the first Sunday, I'm like, this is bad for my street cred. There's a bunch of bad guys that I know that are in here. It's not gonna look good for me to go. So I didn't go. They're in there too. Oh yeah, they're in jail. They're in jail.

SPEAKER_05 20:46

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant in mass.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

No, no, no, no. This is I'm in remand. Okay. Okay. So I want to go to church. I want to go to mass on Sunday. Yeah. I'm like, nah, I can't do it. So I skip the first Sunday. Okay. The second Sunday I decide to go. Okay. So something's telling me, something's giving me the push. Doesn't matter what the judgment is, my street cred, you're gonna go. So I go. And the sermon is on a story from the Old Testament called The Prodigal Son. And it's a story that I knew very well from growing up, being a Catholic, you know, and going to church. It's an old story from the Old Testament about two brothers, an older one and a younger one. The younger one's a total party animal addict, alcoholic, probably like me, who demands his inheritance while his parents are still alive and goes all over the world and blows it and gets his bottom and comes begging. And his he's lost for years. And obviously his parents and pray for him for his return to come home. So he decides to go home when he's got nowhere left to go. And his dad, upon finding out that he's coming home, instructs the older son who's been a Really good son who stayed there and served his family instructs him to get ready to throw a feast and to slaughter the b the biggest and fattest animal because his brother's coming home. And the older brother can't get it. He's like, What? After all he's put us through?

SPEAKER_01 22:17

You want to throw a party and a celebration for this selfish, destructive, unfaithful son?

SPEAKER_00 22:27

And his father told him yes. So he welcomed him, right? He welcomed him with open arms. And in spite of any anything he had done and what he'd subjected his family to, he was welcome home. And so that was the mass. That was the mass when when I went to that to to to to to it was the sermon was on that, I was on that story. And it hit me, it floored me. And I think that was the moment where I knew, okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:54

Did you have that release? Did you cry?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Well, I cried. I cried like a baby for sure. Yeah. But I'm in Reman, can't show it.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

But I think I knew at that point God was telling me it's okay, you can go home. So I ended up getting out of there maybe a week and a half later and convinced to my deepest core that I wasn't gonna use. And I was gonna, I had nowhere to go because I was homeless. And uh I stayed with an ex-girlfriend for five days, and then I relapsed for about four or five days. And then March 2nd, I called my mom and dad and said I want to come home.

SPEAKER_05 23:31

So I don't think that you quite finished that story talking about the prodigal son. Um, he was welcomed home to a feast and and the and then what?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Well, I mean, I didn't finish it because like that story there, that part of it, yeah, was the one that was pertinent to my story because my shame and guilt would not allow me to take that first step, to surrender, to ask for help, to face my family who I knew I had hurt so much. And in fact, the Christmas before, I had gotten on a bus in Calgary at midnight. My cousin had picked me up and I told my dad I was coming home. And just before the bus pulled out of the old Greyhound station in Calgary, my dad was gonna pick me up at in Saskatoon at 6:30 or 7 in the morning. I hopped off the bus because I could not uh the the the cravings and the the I had to use. But I think now, knowing what I know, it was that shame and the guilt.

SPEAKER_05 24:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

I wasn't ready to face it. And that was a few months before I came home.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

Isn't that interesting? What if the obsession isn't about using? What if the obsession is just wanting to feel better?

SPEAKER_00 24:41

And that's it. Yeah, because that was the solution, right? Because I think that's why we relate so much as as addicts, especially in recovery, when we go into a room for the first time. We can relate to the feelings. Yeah. I don't have to explain to you what it feels like and what you're trying not to feel.

SPEAKER_05 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

You get it. Right? And you just you nailed it. You just nailed it. It wasn't really about the using. It was about not facing life. Yeah. Not facing myself.

SPEAKER_05 25:15

So how long did it take for your life to stop being about just staying sober and start being about what can I do with this?

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Almost initially, bro.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Like I knew I was done.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

I knew I was done. Yeah. I just knew I was done. But having there was no there's no track record of knowing that that's gonna be something. I like I didn't know I would be sitting here today 18 years clean.

SPEAKER_05 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

But I had one reservation going in. Yeah. One reservation, one preconceived idea. I thought I'm gonna go to treatment for 28 days. Yeah, I'm going to stop smoking crack cocaine.

SPEAKER_05 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

And then I know I'll be able to drink.

SPEAKER_05 26:03

Oh, God.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

I'll be able to smoke marijuana.

SPEAKER_05 26:05

Oh, wow. That's a that'd be amazing. Yeah. I don't blame you for thinking you could do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

But wholeheartedly, that's what I thought. Well, of course. I thought I'll be able to do the odd bump, maybe a little X once in a while. Whatever.

SPEAKER_05 26:15

Yeah, yeah. Just got to get this crack under control.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Right? Yeah, yeah. And I was in Calder, I think, I believe it was during the first week. And uh we were doing an exercise in group called the Triangle of uh basically. So it was at the triangle at the bottom on one side was the beginning, the first time I you used it, had all these markers and questions as you went up to the to the top, which was the climax, the the height of the party, and then the down to your bottom. So all these questions. When did you start lying? When did this interfere with work? When did this, you know, all these markers, when did you just to the peak of the party, and then all the stuff at the bottom. Okay. And somewhere during doing that exercise, I came to understand that it has nothing to do with a substance. I had to give all of it up. That was a true moment of acceptance. It happened in Calder during that exercise. That, oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 27:16

The substance was the solution, not the problem.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Yeah, I cannot use anything, mood or mind altering, because I just cannot. And so that was that reservation had existed, but it was it was taken out quickly. And so honestly, hang on out. Yeah, were you sad?

SPEAKER_05 27:36

Well, did you grieve? Nope. Didn't you didn't grieve the loss of that? Nope.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Nope, I didn't. Was it scary? Uh a bit, a bit for sure. Um again, I can't give you the answer of why we're all a little bit different when it comes to how certain things sink in or make sense or don't make sense or stick or don't stick. There's different factors. But going into recovery after getting out of treatment, having fully accepted, okay, I can't, I can't go back to any of it. And there's a I think there was a freedom in that.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

There's a freedom in in in understanding that because that is a fact that a lot of addicts and alcoholics coming into recovery do not get immediately.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Yeah.

unknown 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

So there was a lot of freedom that that idea sunk in, that I understood it.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

Well, it's such a such a limiting idea, you know, and and we can't see past it. So as soon as that veil drops and it comes back up again in different ways, right? Like it does. But when it drops and you just that weight comes off. And that's what I often ask people when they when they find that acceptance. The moment they find that acceptance, did a weight come on or did a weight come off?

SPEAKER_00 28:50

I think I would say a weight came off. Yeah. Yeah. Because there was a sense of freedom that I probably didn't understand to what degree did this, you know, to to the severity of that freedom and its effect on me on my and my life moving forward. But witnessing the difficulty of that fact not sticking for so many that that I've that that I've walked on this journey with. That's where the weight comes on. Yeah, man. Right? So that was the one single reservation. And uh I almost used once about two months clean.

SPEAKER_05 29:29

Yeah.

unknown 29:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

And I put myself in a situation sexually motivated.

SPEAKER_05 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Where someone offered me a woman, crackpipe with ready to go. And I got I got a vision of my mom and got out of there.

SPEAKER_05 29:45

Wow. Yeah, that'll that'll shut you off, eh?

SPEAKER_00 29:47

And yeah, and that's the only time. That's the only time.

SPEAKER_05 29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

And honestly, bro, like, yeah, the uh, you know, often you'll hear it in meetings. People will talk about, you know, they'll drive past a patio on a hot summer day, and the idea comes to them, man, it would be nice to have one.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

What happens for me? For example, when I'm driving down 17th Avenue Southwest in Calgary, and there's it's a beautiful hot summer day, and there's hundreds and thousands of people drinking and having a beer in the sun or whatever they're having, and having fun. Yeah, for me, yeah, it's sh the I that what comes in is thank God, A, I'm not wasting my time. I wasted so much precious time.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

I wasted so much time doing that, destroying myself. And two, it's boring.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Even if I could do it, and this is a hundred percent truth for me, yeah. Even if I could do it, I wouldn't do it because it's boring. It's the same old shit over and over and over and over. For me, it's boring. And we're but when we're in it though, it feels productive. But I'm I'm coming from from from from a position where I'm not in it.

SPEAKER_05 31:01

Well, no, and I and I get that I get that, but like I get that feeling here, even in Saskatoon. Um, like it's not hundreds of thousands of people, but like I'll drive past the nightclub, or I'll drive past like, or like just a little while ago, there's a pub up the street here, and I drove past it in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, and there's two people standing outside smoking. And I'm like, man, and like, and I don't want to cast judgment on anyone, right? Like, I mean you can do that, that's amazing. Like, I just can't, but I that made me remember myself doing that, sitting outside on like a like uh waiting for the liquor store to open at 10 a.m. or something like that, you know, and it just triggered that feeling, and it's it's a gross feeling, but it there's a gratitude attached to that big time, you know, big time. So it's like we need that dark to bring in to let the light shine in, you know. So and and like this morning, um, there was a a big uh glitch on Facebook. Facebook shut down. Yep, right. And to me, I mean, Facebook has been a problem for me, and now that I'm using Facebook to promote what we're doing right in this moment, right? It's become very important part of the business and important to carry the message. And it went down this morning, and I thought I got hacked. And like that's three years of of work that I've put into this page, it's a big deal to me. Yeah, right. Like, and I can't, it's it just is, that's a fact. But there's also a like there's all there was also a weird feeling of freedom in that if that's gone, I'm free.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

But also, I don't have to know this, but I know this about you. But even if it did get hacked, yeah, and you lost everything you've done in three years, I know you'd be okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:28

I know I would too. I know I would too, because I've been through and I've crossed enough finish lines and been down, knocked down enough times in my recovery to know that the gift is in the struggle.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

And you don't know what else is opening. No, that's that's just it. Because this is part of your purpose, yeah. And something completely out of your power to control whether Facebook shuts down or not, yeah, is not something that you're that that you're in charge of. Yeah. Sure, it would knock you off your stride for this morning. Maybe we wouldn't have gotten to sit here and do this. Oh, we would have. Well, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:58

That'd have been a different story, but exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

But I know you wouldn't have gone to drink over it.

SPEAKER_05 33:03

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

I would I know you wouldn't have thought I need to get high to deal with this shit. Yeah, I know you wouldn't, I wouldn't have been walking to a situation where you're a raging madman losing his mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:14

Well, I might be it's a possibility. I might be raging a little bit, but but more like shut down, more like just trying to recenter, you know, like I can't I can't deal with this. I have to go here, you know. That's that's kind of how it gets for me sometimes when it gets really bad. And the breath, return to the breath.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

100%. Yeah. The reality is, yeah, it's not like it's not you you you're not made of metal. No, it will affect you. Yes. But how you deal with it and how you react to it will be a far different cry than the damn that I knew seven uh in 2017 when you came in.

SPEAKER_05 33:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

If that had happened now, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

Where's the lesson? Where's the let where's the gift? Yeah. Where's the sign? Where's the new thing?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

And acceptance. Yeah. The answer to all our problems.

SPEAKER_05 33:55

Yeah. You know, I had a guy contest that one time. You know, there's a there's that saying in the program of page 417. Yeah. Uh acceptance is the answer to all my problems. And he said, if that was the case, I'd still be smoking crack. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

That's pretty twisted. It kind of is.

SPEAKER_05 34:11

But he was really a really a gifted speaker. So when he said that and he explained it to me, like, look, if I was just to be a crackhead, like he was, he was swinging off the end of a crackpipe for 30 years, and he's like, if I just accepted that I was a crackhead and that this was going to be my life, I'd still be high. It was it was in finding that way of no, I'm not going to accept this. I'm going to change this. Well, accepting the things we can.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Acceptance, yeah. Acceptance is the answer to all our problems. There's a lot of things in life that are not acceptable. Yeah, I agree. Being being hopelessly chained and completely powerless to to use crack cocaine or anything else against my will day after day, moment after moment, is not acceptable.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

And once I s I have an opportunity to step out of that prison and live a life of freedom, change the things we can. Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. I have that tattooed on my arm.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

Have you ever heard the short form of the serenity prayer?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Give it to me.

SPEAKER_05 35:20

Ready?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

Fuck it. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

I I get it. I get it. I get it. Yeah. Right? At a certain point, I could not change the fact that I was living in active addiction. I could not stop drinking. I could not stop using. I could not stop being selfish, self-centered, self-seeking, self-willed. I could not do it. I could tell myself over and over and over, I'm not going to do this again tomorrow. I had no power. Yeah. I could not change it. That's powerlessness. There was no choice. People, you know, you know when people talk about, oh, my drug of choice.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

There's no drug of choice. It's a drug of no choice. There was never choice in the matter.

SPEAKER_05 36:08

Maybe the first one.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Thank you. Yeah. But near the end, there was no choice. Yeah. That was gone.

SPEAKER_05 36:14

It it the way I like to see it is it it certainly did not feel like there was a choice. Bro, I could not stop smoking crack. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Could not do it. Yeah.

unknown 36:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

In every miserable situation that I found myself day in and day out, I knew deep down this wasn't the life I was supposed to have. I'm not supposed to be here. This is not the person I was supposed to be. I was totally powerless not to do anything about it. But from the moment of surrender, from coming into recovery, and this is very much connected to the anonymous programs. This point is very valid to the anonymous 12-step groups that are in my life. Once I got there, I knew there was a different way.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

And I became responsible for my recovery.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

And I had an army to help me with it. Yeah. So today, it's a choice. You can choose to go to the liquor store. You know where everything point, man. You can call a drug dealer.

SPEAKER_05 37:16

Stands is right there.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

And I can do the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

But we wake up every day and we actually choose not to.

SPEAKER_05 37:23

Yeah. You know, and I don't know if if that's how I see it necessarily. I because like I have no desire to drink. It's been taken from me. You know, there's been times where the thought had sort of like, oh, maybe I should, but it's never been to a place where I'm like, no, Dan, don't go to a meeting, do this, do this, do this, don't use, don't drink. You know, but I do wake up every morning and decide to do my best with the day so that I don't have to wake up tomorrow and drink. It's like I'm that, I'm just a little bit ahead of it. I'm at a place where, you know, like today I am going to get up and I am going to do my best to carry a message in this community. I'm going to do my best to to to find people to engage with, like yourself, where we can carry a message of hope and foster productive conversations about substance use and recovery.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

And that fire needs to be stoked. Yes. And that fire needs to be, you need to be throwing wood into that proverbial fire continuously. Yeah. So it doesn't die out.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

And if you don't keep feeding that fire, I'll end up somewhere, man. You're going to end up cold and in a dark place. And and this, and here's the thing. I think just to sort of like to counter that point to a degree, after you've been here for a while, the insanity of this disease, I'm sitting here telling you to drink or to use does not enter my mind. I make that choice continuously, and I've made it day to day.

SPEAKER_05 38:48

So what is the insanity like that?

SPEAKER_00 38:49

The insanity is better men and women than me and whoever else after freedom and recovery for years, the insanity is that decision will be made. They'll go and pick up somebody with 25 years making a decision to pick up a bottle again. That is insane. Knowing full well having walked a spiritual path that has fought and been dedicated for day after day after being connected and doing all those things that we do. You wake up one day and you decide I'm gonna have a drink. That's the insanity of this disease. And you've seen it. Bro, I've seen it. Over and over and over and over and over. And that is, I think, really understanding that, really sort of having a respect, an unwavering knowledge that that is a possibility. That the wolf's at the door. Bro.

SPEAKER_05 40:07

Um there comes a point, and and it did for me too. And cor COVID sort of pushed me. Um, where we have to walk outside of our little bubble that we've created. You know, I I got into treatment and I created this little recovery bubble, and I stayed very well inside of it. You remember I was I was going to two meetings a day for the first two years of my recovery because I didn't know I didn't know how to live outside of that.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Well, but that's what you had to do. That was your path.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

I'm not I'm not saying this is good or bad. I'm just saying that was that was that's what it was. Yeah. So was that what was that like for you? Now, when you uh did you did you have a little bubble where you found safety?

SPEAKER_00 40:45

In relation to the uh pandemic or in general?

SPEAKER_05 40:48

No, just in like when when you came into the rooms, you found this safe space with like-minded people. Did you just like make this little bubble and stay in it for a while?

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Well, um yes and no. Okay, so first of all, uh, in the first 365 days out of treatment, I went to 359 meetings. Uh in the first three years, probably about 38 sweat lodge ceremonies at John Cuthan's place. He was the spiritual advisor at Calder at the time. So I asked him if I could keep coming after I got out. So over the first three years, I would go to his place a lot of Wednesdays. So I was in it. I was very much in the program, you know, with a sponsor, getting involved in service at different levels, had a home group, you know, do all the things that were suggested to do. But also in the first year I went back to finish a degree that I hadn't finished. December of 2006, I helped open a restaurant. Initially I was the sous chef, I ended up becoming the executive chef. So there was a lot of parts of my life that I was starting. I was, you know, that that drive was finally being exercised in a productive area and implemented into productive areas of my life. Yeah. So I had time to make up for, yeah, because I knew how much time I had wasted.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

So no, I didn't like I I didn't get into recovery to live in a bubble of recovery.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

I I got into recovery so I can have a good life.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

And recovery, by definition, also means I was getting reconnected to a lot of things that I had lost. Being a productive member of society, having an important role in my family, connecting with a lot of my friends that I grew up with, that didn't that weren't addicts and alcoholics, that always had my best interest at heart. Yeah. Did it feel like you stepped out of a time warp? Yes. Yeah. A time warp that was constructed, you know, the the walls of that time warp were shame and guilt.

SPEAKER_05 43:10

Yeah. I I hear you, man. I I did that same thing. I come out of that. There was eight years where it got really dark for me and for Donna. And when I came out of that, all of the people that were around me, they had homes, they had wives and husbands, and they had careers. And it just honestly, like very early on, I'm like, man, it feels like I stepped out of a time warp. Everyone's still here doing things, and I was gone.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Right. Yeah. So, no, and uh, you know, to this day now, especially presently, uh, yeah. And like I said, you know, we all have a different path. You know, not everybody has an amazing family to come that they come from.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

I got to live with my mom and dad at the age of 34 for a full year.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

How many addicts have that support? Right? I know a lot that don't that come from years or generational trauma.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

And addiction and And and alcoholism. So everybody's story is different. Um I had a a decent degree uh uh level of education. And the one thing that I'm always grateful for every day, I thank my higher power. Um I'm super grateful that my brain still works, that my eyes work, that I wasn't physically impaired by my addiction because I cheated death many times.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

And so all those things have given me a capacity to rebuild my life in all areas. And I have relationships, dude, outside of the rooms, probably, you know, very meaning, just as meaningful as the as the relationships in the rooms. But I didn't come into recovery to live in a bubble of 12-step recovery. Yeah, it's it's it's a central part of my life.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Without it being the pinwheel, yeah, everything falls apart. But dude, no, no, no, no, no. And I and for me, that's a blessing. Because it's it's not it that's not the reality for for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Some people don't have, like I said, some people seem to that that's their life, and that's and that's and that's hey.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

Were we to say that's wrong? They've got a message to carry, and there's a good place to carry it.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

And and and more importantly, and I think you can relate to this.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

I came here because I was sick and tired of the misery that I that I had created for myself.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

And I wanted to change my life. NA was never part of the picture, AA was never part of the picture, CA was never part of the picture, nothing 12-step rooms. I thought I was gonna go to treatment, and that was it. Cared. But Narcotics Anonymous has been the biggest one for me. 90% of my recovery has been based in that fellowship, and I'll be forever grateful. And God willing, I'll I'll continue to be of service to those that come after me. Yeah, I came here, and so there was an army of people that helped me change, that gave me the 12 steps, which have the spiritual mechanics to create meaningful change in who I am as a human being, to reconnect me with who I was always meant to be.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

And so I found purpose. I didn't come here looking for purpose, bro.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

I came here for selfish reasons.

SPEAKER_05 46:22

Yeah, you wanted to feel better.

unknown 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Same thing, same old story, and now I'm better at feeling. Yeah, and a byproduct is that I get to be of service. Bro, people used to say, and I I'll I'll I'll I'll this point. Yeah, stay away from Daniel Petros. Who said that? Many.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

Like in the program?

SPEAKER_00 46:42

No, no, outside, before, before I got into recovery. Yeah. Stay away from him, he's a bad dude. Yeah. And they were right. Yeah. Fast forward living in recovery today.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Today, somebody called me to ask somebody that is connected to their family that is struggling with addiction.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

So to be part of the solution, maybe that's the purpose for for and that's enough and and and and and and it's massive for for for certain people who who end up getting into recovery.

SPEAKER_05 47:18

Hey, if you're a parent in recovery, this might be for you. Rebuilding trust with a partner, a co-parent, or the people you love after the chaos of addiction can feel overwhelming, sometimes even impossible. You're not alone. Donna and I have lived it. And out of that experience, we built parenting in the storm. Work created for parents who are trying to rebuild connection without shame and model healthier relationships for the next generation. It started as retreat-style workshops in communities across Saskatchewan, but very quickly demand has grown far beyond what we can offer in person. So depending on when you're hearing this, there may already be digital resources or tools available through the link in the show notes. And if there isn't any yet, I assure you they are coming soon. If any of this resonates, you're welcome to explore it at your own pace. No pressure, just support. Wellness News Choice for Healthy Living is a local resource that works to connect people to health and wellness related products, services, and expert advice from industry professionals locally allowing us to connect and engage. Check out wellnessnews.ca or skwellnesshub.ca today to learn more. If you want to support the channel, there are a few ways. By becoming a paid member right here on YouTube and get early access to new episodes. You can buy us a coffee or you can pick up some merch. Links to all that stuff is in the show notes below. And of course, always remember to give us a like, leave us a comment, and if you're new, a sub to the channel would mean the world to us because it all helps us keep getting louder. We are getting uh calls. Amazing. People are wanting us to come and share in their communities, too. Right? Yeah, it's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

And did did did you is that what you came here for?

SPEAKER_05 48:53

No, I didn't I'm a welder. I didn't come here for any of this, right? You know, but um, but you said something before I said you wanted to feel better, and then you said you learned how to I got I got better at feeling.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

I got better at feeling, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:04

That's a meme right there, man. That's beautiful, and like that's just my like click, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

So like today I embrace all of it, the feelings, you know. Um if I'm feeling lonely, I embrace it.

SPEAKER_05 49:16

I'm better at feeling.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

If if if if if if if I feel heart, I'm grateful for heartbreak, bro.

SPEAKER_05 49:22

You know, um I get it. I get it, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yeah, the capacity I think on running away from emotions, not feeling, numbing them for 20 years, and then obviously, you know, we get into recovery, and a lot of times a lot of feelings come up that we've buried for years, and very often you'll hear I'm feeling messed up, or I'm crying, bawling like a baby, or I don't understand all these feelings that are welling up in me. You hear that a lot in early recovery, especially. And I mean when I mean early, I mean in the first five years. And what I've come to understand is there's an analogy that I use that we emotionally defrost. All that stuff we buried for years has to go somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Yeah.

unknown 50:13

Right?

SPEAKER_00 50:13

We've shoved it in the deep freezer, and and and the freon is all the substance. All of a sudden, the substance, you stop putting the substances in and you're starting to live in recovery and doing the work and digging deep and shining light in all the dark places, those buried emotions start coming. And it takes time to understand.

SPEAKER_05 50:35

Man, I'm seven years in and stuff comes up still, you know. Right? And I've I've worked through it. Actually, I work with a shaman from time to time. There you go. Yeah, yeah. And uh it the the stuff will come up that I thought was long gone, and all of a sudden, whoa, like I gotta sit the hell down, man. This is gonna this is gonna fuck up my day if I don't get on top of this.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

But you you you you can recognize it, you can sit in it, you don't have to numb it, you don't not running away from it. And all of it, when we talk about I've gotten better at feeling, being able to experience joy, despair, sadness, exuberance, all of it, the good and the bad, for me, that's the measure of the depth of my experience as a human being.

SPEAKER_05 51:25

Do you ever think you'll be recovered?

SPEAKER_01 51:27

No.

SPEAKER_05 51:28

So, um, because there's that age old debate, right? Um, uh, and I think the one was at the I love this question, by the way. Good, good, and we can talk about it. Um, there's no time limit on us today. So um there the old big book says uh uh helped a hundred men and women recover.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

I I forget exactly what seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.

SPEAKER_05 51:48

So, but I I I tend to I I I like to reflect on that, and and I and I kind of tend to think that perhaps we will be, or I will be, or I am recovered from my substance use disorder. Now, wait, at what point? Because like I all this stuff now, I ain't never had any of this before. I didn't have this way of thinking before, I didn't have this way of living before. Like, how can I recover something I've never had? Right? So I and I think at some point, for me personally, and the way I understand it in this moment is like at some point recovery ends and discovery begins. And you know, and like now I'm not a person in recovery, I'm a person learning to walk in the human condition.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Okay. Well, listen, I don't think those two things have to be mutually exclusive. Living in recovery and living in discovery. Because, first of all, from the minute you take the first step into recovery, you're living in discovery. Yeah, I would agree with that. Right? The book talks about the big book calls this a spiritual malady. Oh, it talks about alcoholism, and I'll say addiction as a spiritual malady, as a spiritual illness. And we talk about, and you know, we were taught and in the in in the rooms that there's a spiritual solution. This the programs are not religious, they're spiritual. And I know for me, anyways, there's a set of spiritual mechanics at work in each of the 12 steps that help me dig deep, identify, do inventory, find a template for moving forward, consistently seeking outside counsel because I'll forever be blinded by my own by my own perspective. That was my problem, anyways. I could never see outside of myself.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

So it takes vision from others to influence change in me. Yeah. And what am I trying to recover? Every single one of us was born a blank slate, a beautiful little baby.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Yeah. Came into this world unpolluted, unpolluted, untouched.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

And there's a there's a phrase in Latin, tabula rasa, blank slate. And we just absorb and absorb and absorb.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

So we're very much defined and affected by our environment, our experiences growing up. So if the beginning for me, I never had dreams of being an addict, I never had dreams of being in a homeless, hopeless, dope fiend. I had visions of a good life based on the values in the family that I come from and the different societies that have shaped me.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

So the biggest loss was myself.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

That true essence of who I am. And there was a I don't want to get too psychological about it, but there was a construction of a false identity all along the way. I lost myself.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

So recovery, who what am I recovering? In essence. Who likes late?

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Well, who I'm destined to be, my true essence. We know you hear about tapping into the inner child. There's lots of different terms. But in essence, I'm recovering who I'm supposed to be, my my spirit. So whether an addict or not, to have the gift of living in a spiritual way with recognizable and identifiable and acceptable spiritual tools, I'm speaking for myself, that's a process that has no beginning or end. It has it it in a way in recovery, there's a beginning.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

But it doesn't end. So where I have, for me anyways, a little bit of trepidation when people who identify I'm a recovered alcoholic, I'm a recovered addict, there's a finality to that. The work is done. For me, I'm an addict in recovery. And I'm not identifying as an addict anymore in the sense that is for in the rooms, there's anonymity, the spiritual principle, yeah, of all the founding principle of all our traditions. And that's about placing principles before personalities, and most notably getting my personality out of the way. Unpack that I will in a second. So that work doesn't stop. If I say I'm a recovered addict, okay, I'm recovered. What happens if I pick up in five years? What if I pick up tomorrow? And I've seen, and I'm not the only one, many individuals who identify so they're very deterrent in a in a very determined fashion that state that they are a recovered alcoholic. And then at some point they're drunk. That's the only sort of like for me, for myself, and this is for me. And if I'm working with others, this is also a philosophy that I believe in and a truth that I hold. The process of recovery or discovery, expanding your life, the possibilities becoming greater, will always continue. For me, there's a little bit of a lack of humility in myself identifying as I'm recovered because it means the work is done. Right? So there's it's a bit of a warning, and simply because I've like I've told you before, many a man and woman that I've known and have close relationships with in recovery, I'm recovered. They're high and drunk at some point, or they're dead. Recovered. So that's it's more of a caution, a spiritual, cautionary position.

SPEAKER_05 58:09

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Right? But with what was the point you asked me to unpack?

SPEAKER_05 58:14

Uh getting your own personality out of the way out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Yeah. So when we identify, you know, I have some friends who will say to me, Well, you know, that the the that have moved away from the program.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

Well, I don't like the program because I have to identify as an addict or an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

And it's not for me anymore because I'm not like that anymore. The reason we identify that way is A, because it's true for us. But two, it's about anonymity. When I go into the rooms, it doesn't matter who I am, where I come from, what I have, how much or how much or how little we have, oh my connections. None of it matters.

SPEAKER_05 58:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

None of it matters. Yeah. We walk into a room, bro, lawyer, homeless guy that came in, guy from prison, the leave your archetypes at the door. Bro, all of it. Leave it at the door. And honestly, it's one of the few places in this world. If you think about the amount of division, and everything has to be defined and labeled in this world that we live in.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

A lot of it is purposely constructed. When I walk into a room, a 12-step room, all of it's left at the door. Yeah, guns at the door. All of it is left at the door. Yeah. All of it, we're equal. You're just an individual trying to find a solution. And there's like-minded people there. Done. You know, so the and when we were talking about the 12th tradition, principles before personalities, right? Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities. What are the principles we're talking about? Honesty, open-mindedness, willingness, generosity, humility, compassion, empathy, understanding, goodwill, being there for another person. There's many of them. Lots of spiritual principles. And the entire objective of me doing 12-step work was to get rid, right? To remove, to obliterate that selfish, self-centered, self-wit personality that was at the core of my of my of my uh of my disease. Right? That was the core of my problem. So if I'm trying to undergo a spiritual and psychic change, but my personality is there in front of all these principles, it's impossible. The two things cannot happen. So anonymity has taken on a very different meaning. Because in the mean in the in the beginning, and you can't blame anybody for having this perspective, it's like, oh, it's about not knowing or saying that this person's in a 12-step room. You can't talk, I can't say, oh, I know Daniel Hearn if I'm on the street and somebody says, How do you know Daniel Hearn?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Oh, he he I met him in Narcotics Anonymous.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

I can't say that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Right? I have to protect your anonymity, but that's the base level.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

What are we really talking about? Principles before personalities. Get your goddamn personality out of the way, Daniel Petros, and put these principles first. So you can be part of an effective part of the solution, not the problem. Because if I'm if I impose my personality and I have a strong one.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:37

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:38

Yeah. And that's not saying And I'm not being saying that in a slanderous way at all. No, I know when Daniel's in the room, you you know it. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

So I have to be really that's work. That's why part of that work has to continue. Yeah. Because that never goes away completely. Well, it's not a bad thing either. It's not a bad thing either. No. Yeah, I'm not trying to say it's a bad thing. No, I know you're not. I know we understand each other. Yeah. But if I that personality stands before everything else, dude, there's also lots of principles that come with that personality.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:09

Yeah. That's why I named my Facebook name Daniel Unmanageable. It's been that way for three years now. There you go. More than that. Yeah. Four years. I did that as a sort of a slight of that way of thinking. Like just as just as it was talked about, you I said, you know when Daniel's in the room. And if someone who just walked into the conversation might think I was taking a slight at you, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:30

But that's not it because I was told at one point in my recovery that I oh, I'm trying to be all loud and boisterous, and that's ego, and you need to stomp that out. So I'm like, I don't think that's true. I have a gift. I'm I'm good at carrying a message. I'm good at with my words. So I I uh And there's humility in expressing that. Yeah. So and I and I took I took this persona that was deemed egotistical, I named it Daniel Unmanageable, and I said, You have to do good in this world, and I turned it loose. That's where that's where that name came from.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

And listen, like when we do inventory, step four.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

A searching and fearless moral inventory. And you've you've heard it quite often. Oh, it's so fearful. There's so much fear going, it's so hard to do, bro. There's also a positive part of you that you have to inventory.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

It's scarier not to. Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

So I'm not an entirely bad person. There's good to me and there's bad just like anybody else. So I have good leadership skills. I can communicate effectively. I can carry a message of strength and hope that was given to me. I have a good mind that works. Where am I using it and how am I how I'm using it are are are important. I have a heart that has compassion for my fellow human beings in and outside of the rooms. There's nothing egotistical about expressing this.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

I'm willing to be of service to another human being today more than I've ever been in my life. There's no ego in that. That's humility. Humility is having a right-sized perspective of who I am today. Thinking of myself as a complete piece of shit all the time is also egotistical.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

It's the it's the false side of pride. Right? And so being able to express these things and having an honest conversation, yeah, you know quite a bit about me from your time coming into the room, from our interaction in the rooms. And I know quite a bit about you from the time that you came in. And also, we've had some distance as far as regular interaction. But even without a direct link or direct source of information and knowledge, the fact is our spirits and the way we live our lives communicate for us.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:54

What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yeah, and that's why we're doing this. So, um honestly, there's not a mountain that's insurmountable. You don't have to do it alone. Especially addict or no addict. But I'll speak to addicts and alcoholics in particular. All you have to do is ask for help. Right? The disease will tell you nope, nope, you've done too much bad. A lot of that judgment comes in in internally, right? So you know, knowing my story, knowing your story, and knowing thousands of other stories, just talk to somebody. Let somebody in. Ask for help. And as we say, bro, we in the program we talk about how. If you can be honest with yourself that you got a problem and you need help, you can be open-minded about allowing others to influence your decision-making process, and you're willing to take direction, anything is possible.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:08

Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid. Be humble.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

Be humble enough to to to know that you're done. Surrender. You know, and uh the transformation that can take place for an individual, the the ripple effects are many. When we heal, our loved ones heal.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:28

Our community heals.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

Our community heals. Right? We're no longer a part of the problem, we're a part of the solution. And you know, we do we do we people talk about trying to change the world. Yeah. This circle right here. I can work from there and let and and let the chips fall where they may. Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:53

Thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. That was awesome. That's it. Take care for now. Ciao. Hold up. If this hit home or made you think, help us get these stories out there. Smash that like button, drop a comment, and before you go, check out another episode. The more you engage, the more the algorithm shares these voices with the people who need to hear them. Big shout out to SEIU West, our official equipment sponsor, improving the lives of working people and their families and leading the way to a more just and humane society. Find their link in the show notes. Say, this is Hard Knocks Talks.